The Gender Divide – Does it exist in fantasy or is it our perception that it exists, that creates it?
I started last week answering interview questions from Marc at Fantasy Faction (see interview here). Marc introduces the interview with:
‘A few months ago I was in Waterstones and a book caught my attention… ‘The King’s Bastard’. There were thousands of books in the Fantasy/Sci-Fi section of that particular shop, but this one was in the ‘featured’ section and for some reason just jumped out at me. The name ‘King’s Bastard’ perhaps appealed to my darker side, the picture on the front cover of a rugged man with multiple weapons – obviously to be used for brutal combat, the power of the word; King! To me as a male fantasy fan this book simply said ‘pick me up‘. I picked up the book and gave it a read, the blurb was equally dark and I could tell that this book would feature everything I’d been looking for… Now being an e-book reader, I got home, jumped online and added the title to my ‘wish list’… It was only at this point that I noticed the name of the author; ‘Rowena Cory Daniells’. I did a double take at this point – Now, without injecting any sexism into this post (at least intentionally) I had presumed the book was written by a male.’
Please note, I’m not being critical of Marc, I’m taking about perception. It was my perception that most fantasy writers were female because in Australia, it is a bit of a girl’s club. Marc’s sixth question was:
‘Please excuse me for saying this – but after a recent topic in our forum entitled ‘Female Fantasy Authors’ we concluded there are very few of you out there. Even more so – there are less who write darker fantasy. Why do you think this is?’
This reminded me of a conversation I’d had a World SF Con in Melbourne in August of 2010 with Kate Elliot. Kate has since gone on to comment on my ‘Why I’m featuring Female Fantasy Authors’ post. She said:
‘My feeling is that there is a gatekeeper issue that creates a sense of invisibility(of female fantasy authors)and of the sense that the female writers are secondary or irrelevant to the greater discussion. There are a ton of epic/heroic/fantasy review discussion blogs out there, and I think they’re fabulous, but they heavily skew male.’
Tansy Rayner Roberts brings up the point that: ‘The Nebula novel shortlist was just released and it features five female-authored novels (four of them fantasy) and one male-authored.’
So there are great books by female fantasy authors but are they being discussed on the blogs? Lindsey from the US said: ‘most of the female fantasy writers I encounter are in other countries, mostly in Australia. I’d say that reflects in the readership, too.’ Remember it is all about perception. If female fantasy writers aren’t being talked about, then the readers won’t be aware of their books.
And Erica Hayes suggested that ‘in the US, there is a huge romance market, which includes a large slice of paranormal, urban fantasy, fantasy and sci-fi romance. The majority of ‘romance’ authors are female. So perhaps many female fantasy authors in the US are being published as ‘romance’, and are putting a higher romance content in their books — just because it’s a larger market and they have a greater likelihood of making a living.’ Since romance is one of the few genres where a mid list author can make a living, this is a valid point. There seems to be a perception that we authors should be grateful just to be published and be willing to work a second job to support our families. But that is a topic for another post.
Glenda Larke says: ‘Re the gender divide, one part me really HATES saying this, but the advice I’d give to a woman starting out is: use a gender neutral pseudonym. Later on – when you have an established career – that’s the time to tell everyone you are a woman.’
When my first trilogy was published I chose to use Cory Daniells, because it was a non-gender specific name. If I’d continued to do this, Marc would not have been at all surprised by the author of the King Rolen’s Trilogy. He would have read the trilogy believing it to be written by a man. Would this have changed his perception of the book? Will Marc read it now with the subtext, this book was written by a woman, in his mind? Will he think, Gee, she really writes good fight scenes for a woman – rather than – Great fight scene! (Here’s hoping he likes the fight scenes. LOL).
Which brings me back to the original question. Is there a gender divide in the fantasy genre, or is the perception that there is a gender divide, the problem?
Can it be a bit of both. It would would be good to get some input from publishers/marketing on how they approach selling/promoting/targeting a book.
I am thinking of Tansy’s First Creature Court Book which I really liked. I really disliked the cover, thought it was overtly feminine as if it were targeting a female audience of about 15-17. I much preferred the mature illustrations on Tansy’s Creature Court site (before it was hacked and all was lost)which while certainly feminine also spoke of maturity.
I would have loved to design Tansy’s book cover. I would have had males in black leather, hints of danger, Roman ruins …
We authors usually get very little say in how our books are marketed.
No criticism of Tansy. I was aware that usually authors don’t get much of a say. You got lucky with yours I think
‘Sokay. Didn’t think you were being critical of Tansy. Just expressing the general discontent that author’s feel about their covers.
And, as you say, I’ve been very lucky with KRK.
As an Aussie trying-to-be author I’ve noticed a rise in the number of female fantasy writers in Australia and seems that the dominance in the US is favouring male writers. Wonder if it might be a divide coming in E-book vs Hardcopy. More men adopting E-book technology while women prefer the tactility of a paper book. Romance is doing fine, Think publishers like Harlequin who turnover books like magazines, including some good titles in Urban fantasy.
This could explain the whole geographical divide of this discussion.
Or it could be just the law of averages at work.
Chris, are there more men adopting e-books than females? Do you have stats for this?
Strange things do happen. At our primary school we had one intake of 50 boys to 11 girls. No reason, just a statistical blip. But it meant the whole flavour of that year of students changed and a special male teacher was brought in at year 2 to whip the boys into shape.
Interesting what you say about e-readers Chris because I KNOW that romance readers have been huge on the uptake of electronic publishing and electronic readers. There are electronic publishers, such as Ellora’s Cave, that are now recognised as substantial publishers by the Romance Writers of America, alongside the big print ones.
Harlequin have themselves in the past 18 months opened an electronic only subsidiary called Carina Press which is going great guns.
And you guessed it – most of those readers taking to the electronic are women.
So I don’t think it’s a case of men reading electronically, women reading books. I think there’s a lot about us here in Australia not being aware of how different publishing is in the rest of the world.
Pingback: Best Art Blog » Is Fantasy a bit of a Boy's Club? « Ripping Ozzie Reads
Great post, Rowena. Is there a gender divide or the perception of one? Maybe I haven’t been around long enough to comment with any authority on this topic, although some of the points you’ve made or had quoted to you by other authors make for VERY interesting reading.
All I can comment on is that when I first started reading this genre (as a young teenager) many of the authors in the fantasy/sf genre were males, or (as I later found out) had male pseudonyms (ie.Andre Norton). I do have to say that I gravitated towards the stories written by female authors and my bookshelf reflected that – Mercedes Lackey, Anne McCaffrey, Andre Norton, Isobelle Carmody, yourself (although I have my fair share of male fantasy authors there too – David Eddings, Clive Barker, David Brin, Steve Barnes & Larry Niven).
Perhaps the genre started out like many male dominated professions but now, for whatever reasons, women are beginning to share or balance the bookshelf? I like Sean the Blogonaut’s comment about publishers – maybe there’s also been a change in perceptions here? Would be interesting to find out.
Erica Hayes has a good point too. Where your book is placed in the market or the market you’re aiming for might also have an influence. Today, at conferences, particularly in the romance marketplace, we hear so many editors (and agents) say – it’s all about the story, not how old you are, your gender etc.
For me, when I pick up a fantasy book, it’s all about the story, too. Pure entertainment and escapism. Did it entertain me? Could I relate to the characters? Was I awed with the world-building? Would I kill to possess the next book by this author?
Whether the authors are male or female doesn’t factor into my decision to buy or read/enjoy the book.
Good post, some thought provoking points made. I enjoyed reading and thinking about this!
Kylie, it is all about the story for me too.
Although I must admit that I saw the Tamara Drew movie and I enjoyed the way it looked at women in three phases of heir lives, the silly 15 year olds, the Tamara Drew character who most movies are about, and the older woman of 45 who is usually ignored in movies. And it was written by a woman.
I’ve heard a story from Jennifer Fallon, in a bookstore in Brisbane, overhearing two men in the fantasy section. They said they wouldn’t buy her books cause they were written by a woman and then proceeded to buy books by Sonny Whitelaw
Perception is an interesting thing. I’ve been intrigued with comments from people saying this isn’t the case – but they’re arguing that from solely the Australian view, and yes we’ve got a lot of women writers being published here (helped perhaps by the fact a lot of the acquiring editors of science fiction and fantasy in Australia being women?) but it’s certainly not the case in certain areas of the market overseas. I hesitate to say not the case at all overseas, but I know there are several blogs that seem unable to find the girls.
One thing I will do – I go to the US in April, spending time in LA and San Francisco. I’ll go into bookstores there – major and minor – and see what sort of numbers I find in terms of male versus female for fantasy. And I won’t count paranormal romance/ urban fantasy but go generally for epic/traditional fantasy, since I think that’s the specific genre this conversation is relating to.
“(helped perhaps by the fact a lot of the acquiring editors of science fiction and fantasy in Australia being women?)”
Well, this is also true
And I wonder if some of the male acquiring editors’ first loves weren’t hard science fiction, making it less likely they would enjoy novels about young orphan girls discovering they have magical powers in medieval settings with friendly dragons and/or dolphins.
BUT a good editor buys what will sell, and surely the successful ones put market data ahead of their personal preferences.
Thoraiya, I was under the impression that females made up a large proportion of the editors in the major publishing houses. Males hold the top job, but women hold the poor paying editorial jobs.
I don’t think it’s true that a good editor only looks at what sells and doesn’t buy on personal preferences. Otherwise, why do you have different imprints selling different styles of books? Why do particular editors (or agents for that matter) talk about what they do and don’t want to see?
I think that personal taste is very much part of the editing model – if you don’t love it, just how good a job are you going to do of selling it?
Nicole, I’d be really interested in your feedback when you come back from the states. Would you like to do a guest post for this blog about your trip and your discoveries regarding male/female fantasy writers?
Love the story about Jennifer Fallon. For anyone who doesn’t know Sonny Whitelaw is also female, which I guess you could guess from the context.
Happy to do a post, Rowena. This is an interesting discussion.
Mmmm, we really do need more Americans weighing in here.
Bestseller lists may be helpful for comparing USA and Australia, although I’m not sure which of these books are sci fi and which are fantasy (plus I might have some of the genders wrong): It SEEMS like in the January issue of Locus, we have 17 male-authored books (Jim Butcher, Robert Jordan x 2, William Gibson, Stephen R Donaldson, Ian M Banks, Terry Pratchett, Charles de Lint, Guillermo del Toro, Glen Cook, Mike Shepherd, Jack McDevitt, John Ringo, Ray Bradbury, Larry Niven, Devon Monk, Richard Kadrey) and 3 female-authored books (Lois McMaster Bujold, Connie Willis, Patricia Briggs) in the top 10 hardcovers and paperbacks.
A little bit skewed? The Hunger Games, Catching Fire and Mockingjay by Suzanne Collins and Cassandra Clare’s Clockword Angel were apparently on the YA list, instead.
But take a look at the authors of the Best Australian fantasy shortlist ( http://aussiespecficinfocus.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/best-australian-fantasy-series-voting/ ): Jennifer Fallon, Sara Douglass, Glenda Larke, Sean Williams, Juliet Marillier, Karen Miller and Pamela Freeman.
And those are the authors I am likely to find when I look for Australian fantasy in a bookshop. In between your non-Aussie Eddings, Feist, Williams, Donaldson, Weeks and Peakes!
Is it because there hasn’t been a seperate fantasy part of Australian publishing until the last couple of decades, and the editors and publishers who kickstarted it all had no entrenched ideas about what they should be looking for? Or did they know exactly what they were looking for, and was the whole idea to drag romance readers into fantasy?
Good start looking for stats, Thoraiya.
I wish I had the time to do the figures.
I had a look in the local A&R at lunchtime. Managed to find 3 male authors (Eddings, Brooks & one I didn’t recognise) amongst all the ladies. Possibly there were more among the gender neutral names/initials that I didn’t recognise. I didn’t have time to check them. Obviously that includes some vampire books, but not as many of them as I expected. Also that’s complicated by some “traditional” fantasy authors who now write UF.
I’ve always got the impression that Fantasy was considered “girly” and SF was “boyish”, also that there were a larger number of female writers but the old guard” big names tended to be male (because they can turn out EFP better?) The predominance of women now might because there’s a better “range” of fantasy products available?
Monissa, we do seem to have more female authors in Australia. It’s writers and readers overseas who have been saying where are the female fantasy authors? Well, here in Australia, for starters.
To refine the point a bit further: here in Oz we not only have a preponderance of women writing fantasy, but a preponderance of mature women. Just look at the list Thoraiya cited – of the seven, only one or two are under 50, and some are considerably above that benchmark. As a late starter, I find these women inspiring, especially as several of them were well and truly middle-aged when they were first published! They are my role models.
LOL, Satima, don’t you know women get more interesting as they get older!
Hi all,
It’s interesting that whenever someone posts about gender in writing there are a lot of responses. Personally I don’t get it. My feeling is that there is a difference in the way men and women write, just as there is a difference in the way we think and express ourselves verbally.
If you take the view that publishers will print whatever’s selling, then surely all that matters is who’s doing the buying. There are trends and fads and one hit wonders and lucky breaks and die-hard fan bases and all sorts of things that can happen out there. I must admit that it is daunting to see the type of things that are selling strongly right now because I don’t write like that, but it has to be buyer-driven or there’s no point.
If women are buying, then (I guess) women are selling. It would be great to get a bunch of stories and have a test audience attmept to decide whether a male or female wrote them. Maybe you could organise Rowena? Or have you already done something like this in your classes? It would be fun.
Chris there is a such a big lag time between when things are bought and when they sell, that I don’t think the publishers are being responsive to the readers at all.
Plus there seems to be more male writers of fantasy over seas, and they seem to get more publicity than the female writers. While, here in Australia, we have the female writers.
This podcast from Salon Futura might be pertinent to the discussion:
http://www.salonfutura.net/2010/11/the-salon-is-fantasy-gendered/
The pod cast is interesting. Especially the publisher’s point of view.
Pingback: Open season on political plagiarists – and some writing links | Cora Buhlert
I don’t see how anyone can say there isn’t a gender divide in fantasy literature. Are there more or less female writers? I honestly don’t know, but I doubt that. The divide, however, lies in the substance and style that pervades each side. It is very true that the darker stuff tends to be written overwhelmingly by males, and the romantic stuff overwhelmingly by female.
We’ve come a long way in breaking down gender roles and expectations, but they are still there. Women are expected to prefer romance to combat. Does that prevent some women from writing (and getting published) about the combat that they actually adore? Probably so. It’s unfortunate, to be sure.
I guess, to answer your question, I’d say no. Fantasy writing isn’t really a Boy’s Club. But it is certainly segregated along the lines of our outdated, constricting gender norms. Which isn’t much better.